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Post by saxnot on Apr 20, 2016 11:23:04 GMT
Now the next things I want to say I find very hard. This is due to me reading books and looking things up on my own. For a long time although I have been deeply influenced by the old ways, so much so that even though if you asked me I would say I was an atheist, my morality and ethics came almost exclusively from the old ways and its lore. I did not know others who cared about ancient times as I did, so I studied on my own without thought of recording, or discussing the views I came to. There is a deep problem with this that I cannot express too strongly! Over the years of personal research I have built up opinions on what I have read, and I think knowing myself that I have not added views which are expedient for me, but my views are built from what would seem to me to be firm foundations or at least I could originally point to data to back those views up. The problem is that now as an older disabled man who is not in the position because I am no longer able to fulfil the duties I have to my family and to add onto that what I would want to give to a hearth group like just turning up on a given date and time, I am not now in the position to check my foundations without starting all over again. Thus I have just become an opinionated old git. I have strong views in my head but I have forgotten why I came to those conclusions in the first place, I did not record what I saw and what influenced me, and I did not discuss with others perspectives on those views. I did not even have others who just questioned me over what I had looked at, so now the original data has not stuck in my head. I can't tell you how much I love hearing the podcasts from the Hugin Hof Kindred and their discussions, this represents such a necessary process just in talking with another it fixes information in your head that working on your own can never do.
Do not be like me and just work on your own, if you have half a chance of forming a hearth and even if the others are not as committed as you so they do not contribute their own information but just ask you and test your views, or they often let you down, or the hearth only lasts for weeks or you join one and find it is run by an opinionated sod that won't listen to others and just wants to force his views on everybody, what you will get from just talking or reacting to those situations will give you clarity that I realise I have now lost. I have spent 30 years studying and now am forced to admit because I did not fix the original data in my head that I am now again a complete novice with in many areas just opinions, where as once I had evidence as well.
So in my next posts on this thread I will be giving opinions but unlike the posts above where I think there is at least some substantiation for what I represent, what will follow is of a pure personal perspective. Also that in admitting I am in this state it should be evident that any contribution anybody could make on the subject, links to information etc is going to be very gratefully received especially if it is contrary to the views I express. I so need to talk. Hopefully now you may see why even a tiny contribution is of help, so don't hesitate post, even if you are not sure, still do it.
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Post by italianboar on Apr 22, 2016 10:14:32 GMT
"Such then, is the frith which in ancient days united kinsmen one with another; a love which can only be characterized as a feeling of identity, so deeply rooted that neither sympathy nor antipathy, nor any humour or mood can make it ebb or flow." I'm quoting Ragnvaldr and his thread on Frith here...
Saxnot, I've a huge amount of respect for you, and it is something I don't feel or allow frequently, as you may have sensed at this point. A natural empath has to face many problem in this world, and to learn to build walls for self protection against wrong people. However, when he's mature and has learn to discern, he can recognize when is real empathy what he feels. Also, I've been studying and experiencing a lot of stuff in my life. My values have always been there, driving me across different paths and allowing me to take what had some value to me without being absorbed by the complex structure of creeds and system of believes which I felt, in one way or another, alien and foreign to me. My values have always been a bliss and a curse to me. A curse, in the sense that they progressively created a rift between me and people around me. One thing is to have different people walking different personal paths. All another subject is when people as a category run along a spiritualess path someone has prepackaged for them all and you find yourself walking alone in the opposite sense all of your life. It's priceless when you realize your path, regardless from what you've gained and what you've lost, is finally driving you home because you've always been true to yourself.
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Post by huginandmunin on Apr 22, 2016 11:21:45 GMT
I've followed several pagan and esoteric paths but have landed firmly in the Northern Way. From the beginning I found the runes and I think they've been calling me every since. As much as I explored other paths Oðin and the runes have always been there, waiting.
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Post by huginandmunin on Apr 22, 2016 11:52:22 GMT
Back to the topic, although everyone likes to classify Tyr and Oðin as war gods they existed in different forms hundreds, if not thousands, of years before the Viking era. When people look at Asatru they often look to the vikings but that form of religion I would consider "modern". Our way had become similar to other religions in that matters of war and state suoerceded culture, nature, agriculture and the tribe. We have to look father back to find the roots and ultimate truth of the Germanic religions.
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Post by saxnot on Apr 22, 2016 15:44:05 GMT
My presumption with Tyr rests on the sort of military unit he was associated with. We use the word berserker and see them as a fighting elite. Two hundred years after the Viking expansion when Snorri Sturluson was writing it had become a sort of catch all term for anybody that ate a bit of mushroom, or village thug. I think the original view of the elite fighting units was far more precise. I also want to say I also think that the relationship of Tyr and Odin was far closer than we find directly from the lore. The overlapping names, and roles of these two gods I think testifies to a strong relationship. An argument could be made that these two might have been high gods in two different areas and in a coming together of peoples one won over the other and the similarities are a consequence of them both at one time being high gods. The thing is though that the Norse religion almost uniquely admits that its gods are of different tribes that have come together, so an admission that Odin and Tyr came from different tribes would not be a problem. So it is in my view that these two figures are of the same kin just as it says in the lore. Therefore we know the old ways had strong reasons why they said anything they did, as such it is not just important to look at the differences between gods but also their similarities. Both are gods of war both are sharmen.
My though is with whom? and the answer I think is each other. These two gods are the two who's lives are most about fighting the final battle, Tyr holding Fenrir back, Odin about gathering information and getting ready for it. Thor may go fishing, but Tyr is locked in the fight, and almost all of Odin's actions are about the final conflict. Tyr holds the one point of reference in the sky Odin wanders far and near. If we think in military terms these are two commanders and as such they have to be in close contact if they are to succeed. Yes their methods are different but both have the same goal and have sacrificed to that end.
The berserk type fighting man has a very old history in Europe, the Celts had an elite unit that fought naked and painted themselves blue, the colour of a sky god. Tyr is usually depicted bare chested, but also often with some fur like clothing. In Teutonic languages bare and bear are very close words and the association of Tyr and the bear is very close. The Bear is almost the primary animal totem for sharmanism and literally goes back into the mists of time. The oldest artefacts of worship found in Europe maybe of Bear worship by Neanderthals.
From Wiki
I think that the Berserker a name which is derived from Bear is associated with Tyr. However I do not think that all that we would call now berserkers were. I think that groups like the Teutonic ghost warriors that won the victory that saved Germany from Rome should be associated with the wolf and Odin. A veteran now may say he was in the special forces, but to know what he did we would have to know not just that he was in a crack unit but what sort of crack unit he was in. My contention is that Tyr's berserkers had two major rolls in battle, the first was to break up the shield wall of their opponents, the second was to guard the lord. So like a modern guards unit in the British army to stand ground when others are falling back. It might seem odd that a lightly armoured unit would be used for this role, but if we look at how ancient battles took place it does make a lot of sense. for instance not being encumbered with heavy armour means that you could stay moving about longer. Especially when we think that most armour of the period would be heavy woollen cloth (many people now do not now realise how an effective armour that was). So if the fighting style of Tyr's berserkers was that of guards it would also be natural for these men to also be kings champions. So this sort of man might be picked to enter into single combat to save a kings honour. We might think of Sir Lancelot from Arthurian legend. If we accept that we can now see the relevance of Tyr to justice.
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Post by saxnot on Apr 23, 2016 8:33:04 GMT
A little thought in passing as I think Tyr was associated with the Bear, It means I am saying the 'úlfheðnar' wolfhides were not of Tyr's group, but the men associated with Odin. And where as I would say the Berserk would be the equivalent of a British guards regiment, I think the Ulfheðnar could be likened to the S.A.S. From this a thought occurs to me Odin's shamanistic relationship with wolves. Is the reason why no dogs bark at him not because they recognise his power but rather they know he will never harm them? Is Odin's sadness on seeing his death, not due to him finding he dies, but rather he is to be killed by a wolf, the one animal he would never harm? That what he sees in his death is a betrayal, like being killed by a blood brother, the wolf shaman killed by a wolf.
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Post by Wodenson on Apr 25, 2016 6:27:25 GMT
Fascinating thought with many layers to consider.
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Post by saxnot on Apr 25, 2016 10:24:10 GMT
Thank you Wodenson, it is so pleasing to me that I could give you a fraction of what you have given to me.
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Post by saxnot on Jun 8, 2016 9:14:50 GMT
I am coming across some evidence that Tyr, or at least the the practices of those who had an understanding of Tyr were still influencing fighting styles and more particularly duelling a long time after the christianisation of Europe.
This for me is one more pointer to Tyr being the god that holds a dynamic universe together, making order out of chaos. While it is fashionable to talk about a cyclical cosmos like that projected from eastern religions like Hinduism, I now no longer believe our ancestors saw the cosmos that way, but rather the lore is about how order is woven from chaotic forces, there will be repeats in the patten, but fundamentally the concept is not about cycles, those are just the consequences of the spinning.
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